“…all I know for sure is that I want to leave the world a better place than I found it. More love, more patience, more empathy, and more opportunity for my people.”- Courtnaé Paul

Image by Zane Titizana

Courtnaé Paul

Internationally Recognised B-Girl, Choreographer and DJ

Pronouns: She / Her

I know you grew up in Red Hill, Durban, what are some of your earliest childhood memories?

My earliest childhood memories are being at my grans house and playing outside with my cousins. We were our own little crew that specialised in everything from throwing sand bombs that landed on the house windows, hitting cricket balls that broke the house windows, having the greatest sandwiches for lunch, and also running away from my grandfather’s sjambok (in the most innocent and fun way possible).

I also read that you and your cousins would stage performances for the family- what were some of your go-to songs to dance to?

Macarena and Mambo Number 5 were definitely fan favourites. I don’t think it was ever really planned but our family gatherings generally ended in some singing and dancing.

Is it true that a church group was one of your first introductions to dance

Yes! Before joining a church dance group, I didn’t know I had any affinity for dance. I was fully focused on my gymnastics and kickboxing at the time. It was when I went to church with a friend for the first time and took up her offer to try out for the church dance team, it really wasn’t part of the nonexistent plan and took us all by surprise.

I know you started gymnastics at the age of 6. Would you say that’s when your competitive nature started brewing, or did it feel more like play time?

It never felt like play time. My dad was a fierce competitor and always wanted to see me do my best. He would often have “sneaker rewards” for getting certain scores during competition time. It also didn’t help that I had a great gymnast / cousin for a coach, so there was no slouching off for me. It definitely played a part in nurturing the competitor I am today.

Unsurprisingly, your involvement in all things active didn’t stop there. You also played soccer. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you were the only girl on the team, right? Were you made to feel ‘othered’ in any way in that space because of that?

Yes, that’s true. I’m not sure if it was because of how young I was but I didn’t feel out of place at all. I always felt like I could run with the boys, it was my every day. It was only once I got older, and started becoming exposed to “societal norms”, that I realised how different I was - whether I felt different or if it was because people treated me differently is still unclear.

You’ve also spoken about not having many girls or women who shared your interests growing up. How do you navigate that as a young person who is trying to find a path in life?

You don’t. You just keep pushing forward until the system breaks you down, or until you find a way to get out. I didn’t have any plans growing up, I just knew that I wanted to do what I loved - and that seemed to rub many people the wrong way. However, with many ups and downs, I got out.

School always seems to be a contentious topic, especially for LGBTIAQ+ children. What was your experience like?

It was bittersweet. I was different, loud, and lost my dad in my first year of high school. Trying to navigate all that while attempting to figure out who you are is difficult. I had a hard time with most of my teachers, my principal told me I’d be the first to end up in jail lol (but not lol), and I lost faith in the system that was meant to support me.

But regardless of it all, I still came out of school being friends with every type of person there was, from the loud mouths to the math-letes. I found ways to connect with people and “fit in”, and I’m still friends with many of those people today.

You landed your first professional choreography gig at 15- how did you handle that kind of pressure at that age?

I think I handled it well. I was too young to worry about how I would be getting to and from rehearsal or how badly I was being paid, so it was a fun experience - my mother might say different.

It was, however, tough for other reasons. This was my first experience with being in rehearsals every night from 6pm - 10pm, and still having to go to school the next day. It was my first experience with having my dancing (coupled with no prior training) needing to be on point, or be called out for it. It was one of the first times I experienced dancing as a job, and it changed everything for me.

Which part(s) of yourself, if any, would you say were validated through being able to express yourself is this way?

That being different and confident in what I wanted to do would pay off. Whether other people saw it or not.

When you moved to Gauteng at 21, a client gave you hot shorts and fishnets as a “costume”. Would you say this was your first encounter with preconceived ideas of what the industry expects from women performers?

It wasn’t my first experience, but it was my most memorable. I had never been told to my face, in front of other people, that I would be fired from a job because I was uncomfortable in what I needed to wear for a dance solo. I’m a B-Girl and the style / culture of my dance needs to be respected.

I ended up leaving, and getting a call back later that day to get my pants size. It further validated being able to forge my own path, on my terms.

One a similar note, you also mentioned that when you started entering the dance and DJ space, men would almost take it upon themselves to try and “mentor” you in some way, and that a lot of it felt transactional. And when you let them know that you have nothing to give them, they shut you out. This just means that men are aware of the power dynamic and do very little to dismantle it, right?

Without a doubt. Of course, it goes to say “not all men” but I’ve definitely been more privy to the rest of them. I’ve even had conversations with venue promoters who would rather book a female that wasn’t a great DJ, but if she looked good on the poster, they would keep hiring her. As we know, sex sells, and if you’re the lesbian DJ who’s good at what she does, but isn’t going to get sexy for the poster or let you get any further, then essentially I’ve got nothing to offer you. So I’ve had to push on and hope that my work and ethic speaks for itself.

In terms of dismantling the power dynamic, I guess the logic is that privilege never wants to give up its space, and if it does, we haven’t seen it yet.

In an interview with Glamour, regarding being a woman of colour in the entertainment industry, you said: “My issues have always been slightly different, as a coloured female from Durban, I mostly sit on the fence. I’m not light enough nor dark enough, I don’t fit the industry female stereotype, nor do I fit the coloured stereotype that has been perpetuated by most media, and this alone causes a level of pushback”. How does this pushback manifest? And what would you say to anyone who is dealing with a similar situation?

It manifests in many ways. Considering how fickle the industry is, the media machine wants everything and everyone to fit nicely into a box. God forbid that you’re a Durban coloured who looks white but dances black, who doesn’t speak Afrikaans or live a reckless lifestyle like we’re always perpetuated to, then there’s little to no room for you because it’s not in the usual box.

The same thing goes for being gay in the industry, there is no space for lesbians who aren’t super butch and aggressive, or gay guys who aren’t extremely feminine and always have an element of comedy - because those are the boxes that makes sense.

I wouldn’t give advice on how to deal with it, I’m still working through it, and I do it by trying to stay as real and authentic to myself as I can. My spaces will appear.

You’ve been critical of the word “ally”- can you expand on that?

I feel like it’s become too trendy. Being an ally earns you brownie points without doing any of the work. It goes back to that line about privilege never wanting to give up its space. Let’s be allies when there’s real issues to be spoken on, not only when it’s cool at the time.

Image courtesy COSMO

In a 2020 interview with SportsScene, you said: “I am yet to find a space that isn’t male-dominated”. How do we change this?

I think women are doing all they can with the opportunities they’re given. We as women can’t change something that we can’t control.

I know Bev Ditsie is a friend and a role model of yours. How does she influence and inspire you?

Bev is such an incredibly powerful woman who continues to push the envelope. We met about 5 years ago on a TV show that we were both working on, and getting to know her was so impactful. I’ve never seen someone just so comfortable being themselves in a world that wasn’t set up to give you space, I admire her for that.

You have your South African Colours for break dancing and you are training towards representing South Africa in Breaking at the 2024 Olympics. Firstly, congrats- this is incredible!

Secondly- how do you even begin to process training for the Olympics? Do you think about the creative, the physical and the strategy? What insights can you share?

Thanks so much! Well I would’ve had my colours if we weren’t put on a red list last December, which stopped us from competing at the World Games in Paris, so I’ll have to give it another bash this year.

I’ve restructured my life as best as I can because I realise the weight of the opportunity ahead of me. I’m currently the Red Bull BC One SA B-girl champ and will be defending my title (broken foot and everything) on May 1st 2022. Winning this will mean heading to the world final in NYC this year after being the first African female to compete at a BC One World final event in Poland last year. So there are many touch points along the way that I am trying my best to be prepared for, but it will be a first for us so there will be a lot of trial and error.

Ok, I think we should end on a few light-hearted questions:

You’ve mentioned that Drai’s in Las Vegas is the club you’d most wanted to DJ at - what is it about that venue that appeals to you?

I’ve always loved upscale productions both as a choreographer and DJ, and that venue just screams drama. I love it.

Speaking of travelling- I know you are a big fan of the watermelon juice in Thailand- can you describe it for the uninitiated?

Oh my hat, what a treat! I’m not sure if you can get watermelon juice poisoning but if you could, I’d have it. It’s just the freshest watermelon taste without having to chew

After everything you’ve achieved, is your mother still most proud of you being the “Y” in one the first “YOtv” intro sequences?

I can officially say she’s found a new favourite. I DJ’ed on the Christmas EP of a new SABC 1 show called Issa Vibe (which she initially missed because she was hosting her Christmas lunch) but it replayed for some reason at the end of March. A few of her friends sent her the videos and since then, her pride tank has been refilled.

Image by Mpumelelo Macu

Lastly- how do you envision your legacy as an artist and performer?

I try not to take on too much pressure (which doesn’t really work), but all I know for sure is that I want to leave the world a better place than I found it. More love, more patience, more empathy, and more opportunity for my people.

For more information on Courtnaé Paul, be sure to visit her website.

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Interview by Gary Hartley

This publication was made possible with the support of the Other Foundation. The views expressed herein do not necessarily represent those of the Other Foundation.